Action Sport Games kindly provided the opportunity to interview Mr. Mark Westrom, CEO and owner of the ArmaLite Corporation and Mr. Henrik Grobelnik, CEO of Action Sport Games. We would again like to thank both for kind and honest answers about both airsoft and weapons industry
Airsoft News EU: Mr. Grobelnik, how did you established connection with Classic Army?
Grobelnik (ASG): Our connection with Classic Army was established many years ago at that time they still only produced parts. From that time we have together been able to develop our companies by a close partnership.
Airsoft News EU: Trademarks are more and more important. What was the main catalyst for ASG to obtain or to start obtaining the trademark licenses for airsoft replicas?
Grobelnik (ASG): It takes some time to reach the point where you realize and understand that importance and scope of IP rights (trademarks and designs). But changing market conditions was the real major catalyst at that time.
Airsoft News EU: Action Sport Games has obtained rights from number of weapons manufacturers. Mr. Grobelnik, how much is ASG involved in the creation of new models of Classic Army line of products and what does set the ASG as a company apart from the competition?
Grobelnik (ASG)It varies. For some products we are quite much involved other less. An example for a product very we have been very involved is the new DSA SA-58. All externals of the Airsoft Classic Army SA-58 are made from the real drawings and real parts of the DSA SA-58 so this has been an exciting model to develop. Our cooperation with the real firearms companies, like DS Arms, among many, together with the extensive expertise from Classic Army, enables us to make such fantastic models like the DSA SA-58. We strive together with Classic Army to bring much realism as possible into the airsoft products to create value for the users and I think it is one of the points that set ASG as a company apart from the competition.
Airsoft News EU: Mr. Westrom, you are CEO of ArmaLite Inc. How did your company got involved with airsoft replicas?[/b]
Westrom (ArmaLite): We wanted to produce training, pellet firing device, relevant to M16 for some time. ASG contacted us and we established good communication. They offered good product and we have seen business opportunity. ASG already established cooperation with Classic Army. Demand for high quality training product was strong and we were able to offer a good training device.
Grobelnik (ASG): We all share strong desire and commitment to quality. ASG, Armalite and Classic Army are all mature companies. As you probably know, Jackie (owner of CA) is also an avid airsoft player.
Westrom (ArmaLite): We were really impressed by constant improving of the products on Classic Army's part.
Airsoft News EU: Mr Westrom, one more question about your involvement with airsoft replicas. Why are airsoft replicas suitable as training aids?
Westrom (ArmaLite): As said, there is considerable demand for training rifles. Our interest in airsoft is basically because of security demands: deactivated M16s in in US Army's eyes are still considered as M16s, which demands strict security measures. Airsoft guns can be secured in the closet. They offer great realism in training and even experienced shooters didn't recognized that they are not the "real deal."
Airsoft News EU: Mr. Westrom, I understand you served in the US Army. What is you background?
Westrom (ArmaLite): My background? Army Ordnance officer- actually a arms maintenance officer. I'm rare breed. (smile) I worked in maintenance facilities (Army depots) where we worked on new rifle systems and development and introduction into the Army.Then I shifted work with AF ammunition and than returned back to the small arms, where I was responsible for fielding SAW in the US Army and also various M16 projects.
Later, I provided advice to Eagle Arms Army and finally purchased ArmaLite. After the purchase, we established link to engineers, who worked on M16 project.
Airsoft News EU: Mr. Eugene Stoner included?
Westrom (ArmaLite): No, he died shortly after the purchase of the ArmaLite. When speaking about Stoner- it is a myth that he invented the rifle all together. His genius was in gas system...
Airsoft News EU: Gas impingement?
Westrom (ArmaLite): This is only partially correct name. He took bolt off... what was it called... Machine gun used by Marines in WW2?
Airsoft News EU: Johnson Machine Gun?
Westrom (ArmaLite): Yes, Johnson machine gun with short recoil bolt and used his newly developed gas neck rod direct gas system. Whole system is very close to free float system. Stoner's system uses expansion, where lightweight tube contracts and expands with much less force on the barrel as traditional systems.
He combined various systems into one working system. Trigger is borrowed off M1 Carbine, for instance. It is interesting that Stoner preferred steel for receivers, but Charles Worchester, CEO of the Fairchild Industries at the time, preferred hi-tech materials.
Airsoft News EU: When talking about myths... what is your opinion on AK system and wide spread belief that "AKs don't jam?"
Westrom (ArmaLite): They don't jam much, true. AK system derives lots of energy from the cartridge. It is a powerful, big cartridge. But there is lots of weight is in the motion which affects accuracy. And one more thing about reliability- magazines. AK magazines are strong and reliable.
Airsoft News EU: Yes, they are heavy and thick.
Westrom (ArmaLite): There is interesting story behind. Magazines are metal, with thick lips. Feed lips are machined as Soviet sheet metal technology at the time didn't allow one piece constructed magazine. It is best solution, but expensive one. It is also a logical construction, driven by technology limits.
AK is very ingenious design, but there are some trade-offs. For instance, single soldier is very limited with amount of ammo he can carry.
Airsoft News EU: Yes, typically only four magazines.
Westrom (ArmaLite): ... Yes. another point: M16 is branded unreliable by competition, who sells other rifles. When stationed in Germany in mid 1980, I performed informal test, together with my friends. We fired 4000 rounds, with no lubrication and no cleaning for 2000 shots. There were no problems whatsoever. We used M16A1.
What will fail are magazines or other simple and quickly correctable things, extractor spring for instance. We have shot thousands upon thousands of rounds with not many malfunctions, which were mostly due to the ammo.
And one more thing. It is natural for soldier to expect that opposite side has better weapons. I remember the 1967 war between Israel and Egypt: Israelis were armed with AKs, Egyptians on the other side of Suez canal with UZIs. As said, it is human nature.
M4A1 is not as reliable as it is expected. It is shorter, but it is not fully customized to ammo. But it has high CDI factor- you know what CDI stands for?
Airsoft News EU: CDI? Can't say that I do.
Westrom (ArmaLite): Chicks Dig It (smile). There is push to use it, as collapsible stock is important when using body armor, but buffer tube remained the same. As one of the engineers at ArmaLite likes to say "There ain't no free ride." This is true.
Airsoft News EU: Another complaint is that 5,56 isn't lethal enough.
Westrom (ArmaLite): This is standard complaint for any transition to a new caliber. It was the same when we rejected .45 and went on .30. At the time, it wasn't lethal enough. Same story with .30-60 and 7,62. Same concerns all over again.
People think that a perfect cartridge and a perfect system are out there. Don't believe it for a minute! Change involves high costs, and any hunter can claim which bullet is better. There is no magic bullet. But there is one change I would make- I don't like cartridge with penetrator. We should go back to lead core, steel jacketed bullet.
Airsoft News EU: How do you comment "upgraded" M16 systems, such as H&K 416?
Westrom (ArmaLite): I'm not impressed. USSOCOM invited manufacturers to submit proposals. One of the demands was that gas tube has to go and new system must reintroduce gas piston. They didn't like the fact that M16 system blows carbon grasses right back into the system. Pistons are not inherently better: British L85 uses piston and has averaged 165 fired rounds between failures.
Much of the blame for this mindset is on what I call "white glove mentality." It is hard to define term. For instance: soldiers and Marines experienced problems with compensators simply falling off. After investigation we determined that soldiers and Marines loosened compensators for cleaning. In order to turn it to the armorer -who is responsible for cleanliness of the weapons and will reject any weapon, which is not cleaned up to his standards- we found that soldiers and Marines manufactured simple tools from a coat hangar in order to pry off the carbon from hard reaching spots, which were really not intended to be so thoroughly cleaned. Sometimes you have to be comfortable will less thorough cleaning (smile).
Airsoft News EU: Users praise H&K magazines.
Westrom (ArmaLite): They are excellent products- it is properly made, but it is a brand new product. We will have to wait and see for long term reliability.
Airsoft News EU: When talking about magazines- were first ArmaLite AR10 magazines really discarded after use?
Westrom (ArmaLite): Early AR10 in fact came with lightweight, non-durable and disposable magazines, which came in cans, and were preloaded to be discarded after use. But it didn't happen- it was too expensive.
Speaking of magazines- it is a persistent myth that magazines are non maintainable- ArmaLite homepage offers tech sheets with detailed description of magazine maintenance. One common suggestion in the case of weapons failure to take a good look at the magazine.
Especially soldiers don't like to throw away even damaged magazines. Experience with magazines in first Desert war was bad- there wasn't nearly enough at the start. This is clearly a logistic failure and as such non tolerable. Reason is simple- there were simply not enough magazines in the Army. One comes with the rifle and there should be additional 3x2 for every rifle.
You typically find out how much magazines you have on two occasions: on rifle range and when you go to war.
In US Army, magazines are secured in to one or two footlockers in armory and when we inspected people responsible had no idea how much magazines is there and how much should they actually have.
Bottom line: both M4 and M16 are very good systems. My personal opinion is if guy took his rifle into the war that does not make him an expert. Don't get me wrong, feedback is still valuable. It is common mistake when development doesn't listen to the users.
Airsoft News EU: Future plans?
Westrom (ArmaLite): Introduction of Armalite's new AR-24 pistol in airsoft.
Airsoft News EU: Gentleman, thank you for your answers and all the best in your future ventures.
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